The Next Five Years: An Interview with Dr. Ramazan Bashardoost
Ramazan Bashardoost, a member of the Afghan parliament, was one of the leading candidates in the 2005 parliamentary elections, and again, in the 2009 presidential elections. Mr. Bashardoost was also the Minister of Planning in the Transitional Government of Afghanistan. He received a PhD in diplomacy and international relations from France’s Toulouse University in 1995. Kabul Direct interviewed Mr. Bashardoost at his office in western Kabul.
Kabul Direct: What is your assessment of how Afghanistan’s second democratic presidential elections just went?
RamazanBashardoost: The new elections opened up a new path in Afghanistan’s political history.
Up until now, Afghan politics were always about wealth, ethnic rivalries, religious sectarianism, and so forth. Never in the history of our country has an Afghan gained power without substantial wealth, tribal or ethnic influence. For the first time in the history of our nation, anyone could run for office, even someone without these traditional support networks.
Take my case, for example. Every ethnic leader from the Tajiks, to the Pashtuns, to the Uzbeks, even the Hazaras, my own people, did not line up to support me. Wealthy Afghans did not underwrite my candidacy. None of the Afghan banks would give me a loan. But in spite of the lack of support in these traditional circles, I was still able to announce my candidacy. And even more astonishingly for Afghanistan, I was able to get the third highest number of votes.
Many other candidates were able to draw on far greater financial resources. Some spent millions on their campaigns. But in spite of all that, when I went to each province, Afghans were there, waiting for me, eager to hear what I had to say. So I believe that this means that we have come a long way. An Afghan no longer needs the traditional sponsors he once did. We don’t have to be dependent on anyone anymore, other than ourselves.
Kabul Direct: When the elections results are finally announced, what do you expect as far as your own candidacy is concerned? Will you be happy with the results?
Bashardoost: When I first received polling data from the various polling stations in places like Behsud, for example, I was shocked. This was because the polls said that the Behsudi Hazara had voted for President Karzai. To me, that was the first indication that there may have been fraud. Or the Hazara vote in Behsud may have been the result of fear. Then I saw that the same results were being repeated all over. When I asked if there was a possibility the results had been rigged, I was told no. It was President Karzai’s effective campaigning in those areas.
Kabul Direct: Are you saying that you believe that the results really were because of Karzai’s campaign strategy?
Bashardoost: Well, I can’t necessarily say that. What I do know is that it was effective enough to reach the various community leaders. I am told that the Karzai campaign was propagating the false rumor that I had converted to Christianity, that I was part of a colonialist-type plot to take over Afghanistan. They said that never during the history of Afghanistan could a Hazara win. Only a Hazara who was willing to sell out the Hazara to the Pashtuns – meaning me – could possibly think he stood a chance.
Pashtuns were besieged with similar type of disinformation. In the polling station at Khoshal Khan high school, for example, President Karzai got 500 votes. I got only eleven. When I asked one of the high school students why people would cast their ballot for more of the same mismanagement, the student did not understand my question. He said that the high school students had been convinced that Bashardoost was dishonest and could not be counted on. They were told that my intention was to turn Afghanistan into a vassal Persian state.
Kabul Direct: What about the criticism you received that you have not assembled a team that you can work with here in Afghanistan? That you are a loner is not capable of being a team player?
Bashardoost: Well, I do think I need to reassess my strategy and tactics as it is true, I cannot compete with many of these leaders in terms of the size of my team. But most of my competitors assembled their teams by force, during the Soviet war. They began as warlords. And now these former warlords have accumulated soft power as well – like radio and TV stations for example.
You can see there power even among the Hazara. In every Hazara house there is a TV that broadcasts the station owned by Mohaqiq, a former warlord. In Tajik families, the station they watch is owned by Rabbani. Pastuns and Uzbeks, of course, have their own stations. For at least a year I tried to establish a radio or TV channel myself but simply could not come up with the financial resources to actually do it.
So how did I get the votes I did? Well, I attribute whatever success I had to a corps of volunteers. People would come to Kabul and they would hear what I had to say. And then they would go home to their villages and provinces and help me spread my message. I couldn’t even give them campaign posters, so I gave them my business card, the only thing I could afford to send with them was my visiting card. And I even ran out of them after awhile.
I believe that this is the only reason why I can’t seem to assemble any kind of sizable team. I simply don’t have the kind of money it takes. I don’t have the necessary resources for team work.
Kabul Direct: Is there a way you can get the necessary financial backing?
Bashardoost: Well, I am thinking about how I can do that. There were traders who wanted to back me. But they were only willing to do so if I promised to reward them with opportunities if I won. I even had indications of willing support from some members of the Republican Party but again, attached. They only wanted to support me on the condition of anonymity. I could not accept such offers as in the first case, it would comprise my integrity, and in the second, secrets are impossible to keep and I couldn’t offer those kinds of assurances.
Kabul Direct: The impression the media gives is that you don’t have a real message to give or your message is confusing. The international community says you want their forces to leave Afghanistan. While Afghans believe just the opposite, that you are the candidate who wants to expand the international presence.Shouldn’t you refine your message so there are not these two distinctly different impressions out there?
Bashardoost: I do think the criticism is fair to the extent that people are confused about stand for. However, this is not something I can easily rectify. There are too many news agencies who do not want to see the confusion go away, and they are willing to misinterpret my words or take them out of context to make sure that the confusion persists.
For example, I was once quoted as saying that the Americans should leave Afghanistanalong with their B52 airplanes. But what said, in fact, was that I didn’t want Americans killing Afghans in Kandahar. What I was saying was that Americans need to be a stabilizing presence, not a destabilizing one.
I have repeatedly stated that if the Americans leave too soon, that I myself won’t be able to live in Afghanistan. I have even said this to reporters, pointing out that if the Americans were not in Afghanistan, we wouldn’t even be able to have this kind of conversation. And my situation is no different from most Afghans, I believe.
Then in the Guardian, it was reported that I was a nationalist who, if elected, would attack Iran. What I actually told the reporter was that if I became president of Afghanistan, I would try and work with the neighboring countries to build a Central Asian Union. This would be an economic union similar to what exists between European nations. My willingness to attack Iran came in because I said that if Iran, Pakistan or any other country could not respect Afghanistan’s sovereignty, and if they continue to kill Afghans, then we Afghans have the right, like any other nation, to defend our country.
Everyone of sound mind knows that I am no Christian or any kind of tool of the colonial powers. What people do fear about me is that if I should ever get power, then their stronghold on certain domains would be challenged.
We all know that Afghanistan is rife with thieves, fraudsters and corrupt politicians. What we might not realize is that the self-dealing isn’t limited to Afghans. How many people realize that 40 percent of what Americans donate to Afghanistan actually goes directly into the pockets of American organizations? The professional thieves who run these organizations take the money and send it to Swiss banks where they evade American taxes as well.
Kabul Direct: Let’s talk about the next five years. Where do you think Afghanistan is headed? And what canwedotofix things?
Bashardoost: First, the Taliban war is not a war against Americans. When I was in Uruzgan Province during the campaign, I would stop by small restaurants for a cup of tea or a bite to eat. Everywhere I went I was told that Mullah Omar will never talk to President Karzai. Many people in Uruzgan told me that even if he was willing, his cook would kill him first.
Kabul Direct: Why do you think they told you this?
Bashardoost: They told me that when it was announced in 2001 that Karzai would become king – their word, as they cannot see the difference between akinganda president – that, when karzai was announced as king – they think president and king is the same- they were asked to tell him what they wanted.
They told me that all of the Urugzan elders had the same demand. Either free the Taliban prisoners in the North, or keep them safe until they appear in court.
Well, Karzai made it to Kabul, but the Taliban prisoners they were referring to were killed. So since then, Karzai has never been trusted by the Pashtuns of Urugzan. I was told that the same thing happened in Kandahar as well.
Moreover people in Urugzan believe that the prisoners were killed as a part of a vendetta. It was Karzai’s representatives in Urugzan, I was told, that were the people who the Taliban had ousted from power. So when he came to power, these were the people who were allowed to take their revenge out on the captured Taliban. So I believe that the real enemies of the Taliban as far as the Taliban is concerned are the Dustoms, the Mohaqiqs, the Fahims, the Sayyafs – the warlords who wouldn’t join them.
In fact I asked a Talib commander once why they killed Americans and Dutch soldiers when their real enemies are the men I just listed. His response was that this is because the foreign soldiers put themselves between the Taliban and their enemies. So these are the people that are causing the rest of us to get killed.
Of course there are other factors in the insurgency. For example, Dr. Spanta, our Foreign Minister told me that the prime minister of Pakistan pointed out that the first image they see when they arrive in Kabul is Ahmed Shah Masoud’s picture – it hangs in the airport. To the Pakistanis, this is an insult. They interpret the photo as a message those who are now ruling Afghanistan are their old enemies.
My assessment is that things are going to get worse in the next five years, not better.
Kabul Direct: So what is the solution?
Bashardoost: I think we first need a president who has a clean record. The current leadership has too much blood on its hands – the blood of innocent Taliban, Mujahideen, and communists. Then the president must be free of communitarian, sectarian, regional, and international influence. No special interests should be higher than the interests of the nation as a whole.
Why was I able to travel throughout Afghanistan during the campaign without the coterie of security that politicians are usually forced to travel with? It was because I am known to be independent and unattached to anyone’s agenda.
We have to build a strong economy in Afghanistan. And we have to be honest with the international community. Karzai needs to choose his friends. He cannot have both President Ahmadi Nejad and President Obama as his personal friends at the same time.
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